..... Theodora


Court Hearing 10/17/94

NOT the whole truth
Definitely NOT so



3 --oOo--


6 Petitioner, )
) 7 vs. ) CASE NO. )
9 Respondent. )

Medford, Oregon
12 October 17, 1994
9:00 A.M.


15 --oOo--

18 Attorney at Law
900 West 8th
19 Medford, Oregon

21 In Pro Per
807 Oak
22 Medford, Oregon

24 Official




2 MONDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1994; 9:00 A.M.

3 --oOo--


5 THE COURT: Coutsoukis vs. Coutsoukis.
I may not be

6 pronouncing that correct. If I'm not, I

7 THE COURT: Are you involved in this?

8 MS. SANZ: I am.

9 THE COURT: Do you want this reported?

10 MS. SANZ: Yes, Your Honor, we would
like it

11 reported.

12 THE COURT: She's kind of like a
machine. She keeps

13 reporting until I tell her to stop.

14 MS. SANZ: Your Honor, there are, I
believe, from

15 Mr. Coutsoukis's Petition -- excuse me -- from
his Response

16 he is contesting the restraining order as a
whole as well as

17 bringing up the issue of visitation.

18 This restraining order was issued on
October 5,

19 1994. My client's -- Mrs. Coutsoukis --
allegations are

20 that he is verbally abusive. She is in fear of
her safety.

21 There will be evidence today of his anger, his

22 nature; that he's unstable; he hadn't been
sleeping for

23 several nights.

24 This is not the first time she has had
to request

25 the Court for a restraining order. There was
another one


1 issued in January of this year, and there is
evidence that

2 at that time he had threatened to kill her and
also from

3 other previous events that had happened in the
past. She

4 very much wants the restraining order to
continue; that they

5 not have any contact whatsoever, except she is

6 that he be allowed to have visitation.

7 There are some problems that have come
up with

8 visitation since the time of the restraining
order due to

9 his obsessive nature concerning the child and
her concern

10 that in the past he has taken off with the child
to go to

11 San Francisco. We don't know why he took off
without giving

12 her previous notice. Thank goodness he did
return, and

13 subsequent to that, the parties have had more

14 She then had to apply for the
restraining order, and

15 she has since then also filed for a dissolution.
So we very

16 much want the restraining order to continue. We

17 ongoing concerns regarding visitation.
Visitation right now

18 is taking place as much as possible at the child

19 provider who is here to testify, and we are
agreeable to

20 have that continued at the child chair
provider's place.

21 THE COURT: Mr. Coutsoukis, do you want
just to get

22 visitation, or do you want the restraining order
lifted, or

23 what's your position?

24 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Your Honor, may I
address a couple

25 of the accusations?


1 THE COURT: Just answer the question.

2 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I'm contesting the

3 order as well. My wife has never --

4 THE COURT: That's all I need to know.
She's going

5 to have to put on evidence now. You're not
satisfied with

6 having the restraining in existence and get

7 MR. COUTSOUKIS: That's correct.

8 MS. SANZ: I'd like to call Susan



11 called as a witness on behalf of the Petitioner,
was sworn

12 and testified as follows:

13 MS. SANZ: Please be seated. State your
name and

14 spell your last name.

15 THE WITNESS: Susan Samora Coutsoukis,

16 C-o-u-t-s-o-u-k-i-s.




20 Q. Mrs. Coutsoukis, can you please state
where you

21 reside.

22 A. On Bellinger Lane, 3950.

23 Q. In Medford?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. And you are married to Mr. Coutsoukis?


1 A. I am.

2 Q. For how many years have you been

3 A. Ten years.

4 Q. You have a child?

5 A. I do.

6 Q. And can you please state her name and
her age.

7 A. Her name is Theodora Coutsoukis, and
she's one.

8 Q. And you called her Teddie?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And she's currently in your custody?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You applied for a restraining order
earlier this

13 month. Why did you do so?

14 A. My husband has been acting very
irrationally. He's

15 incredibly angry. I'm fearful that his lack of
sleep and

16 that his instability could cause anything to
happen. His

17 judgment is very flawed. I mean, he will scream
and shout,

18 and I'll be nursing, and he'll be screaming at
me at the top

19 of his lungs.

20 And I'll cover the baby's ears, and
he'll say "She

21 doesn't mind my voice. She likes to hear my

22 Q. Is he verbally abusive towards you?

23 A. Yeah. He calls me all terrible names,
and he'll

24 come right up to my face and keep screaming at
me, and I

25 just don't know what it's going to take.


1 Q. In the past year has he threatened to
hurt you or

2 kill you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And has he acted violently against you
or threatened

5 to hurt you in any way?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, was there an incident concerning
your child,

8 Teddie, wherein he took off with her out of

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you please describe that to the

11 A. Yes. I believe it was in the middle of
June or at

12 the end of June. We were taking the baby to
Greece to be

13 baptized. I got a call, and he said that they
were out --

14 or he left a message on my machine at work that
they were at

15 the store or something. I came home at
lunchtime, and they

16 weren't there. The phone rang. He said,
"Everything is

17 fine. We're okay."

18 So I'm thinking he's at the store and
everything is

19 fine. He was calling from San Francisco, and we
had all the

20 tickets to go to Greece, and I believe he had
them with

21 him. I said, "What are you doing in San

22 He said, "Well, I had to take the baby
because I

23 don't feel like I'm her father."

24 Now, he takes care -- has taken care of
the baby

25 because he's out of work.


1 Q. Can I just bring you back to the
questions here and

2 what the Judge will want to hear.

3 A. I'm sorry.

4 Q. Did he give you any indication
whatsoever that he

5 was leaving the state of Oregon?

6 A. No, absolutely not.

7 Q. Did he indicate that he changed his mind
and was

8 coming back to your home?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And he did, in fact, return?

11 A. He did.

12 Q. Did this cause you concern?

13 A. Concern? I was hysterical. I called
his sister in

14 Greece and said, if he goes, to make sure that I
can -- he

15 won't keep the baby in Greece.

16 Q. Have you made any steps to make sure
that the child

17 not leave the state?

18 A. I have her. I have her passport, and
I've contacted

19 the passport services, and they won't issue
another passport

20 if someone says that it's lost.

21 Q. Are you currently breast feeding?

22 A. I am, yes.

23 Q. And has he been violating the
restraining order

24 since it's been issued?

25 A. Yes. He came to the house on Monday,
thinking that


1 there was going to be a baby-sitter in the

2 Q. And did he make telephone calls to you?

3 A. He's called constantly. He leaves
messages on my

4 machine at work. I can't pick up. My phone
rings at

5 3:00 o'clock in the morning for minutes and

6 constantly.

7 Q. Are you in fear of him?

8 A. Yeah, I am. I mean, I hear noises in
the house, and

9 I think that it's him. I just -- he's not

10 Q. And you agreed that he should have
visitation with

11 Teddie?

12 A. Absolutely.

13 Q. But that that be right now in the child

14 provider's presence?

15 A. I just think it's better for right now
because he is

16 so unstable.

17 MS. SANZ: No further questions, Your

18 THE COURT: Mr. Coutsoukis, do you want
to stand and

19 raise your right hand and be sworn, please.



22 called as a witness on behalf of the Court, was
sworn and

23 testified as follows:


25 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State
your name and


1 spell your last name.

2 THE WITNESS: My name is Photius

3 C-o-u-t-s-o-u-k-i-s.

4 May I cross-examine Susan?

5 THE COURT: Why don't you go ahead and
tell me your

6 story.

7 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Okay. I want to point
out that in

8 the last ten years or so, I have made well over

9 $1 million -- very close to a million dollars in

10 alone.

11 THE COURT: I'm not interested in your
income. I'm

12 only interested in the situation between you,
your wife, and

13 the child.

14 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Well, the situation is
that I gave

15 up a career and a business to come with Susan
who works at a

16 local company expressly for the purpose of
taking care of

17 Theodora, our daughter, because I feel very
strongly that a

18 newborn infant is better off with a loving,
caring parent

19 than outside the house.

20 I did this under rather difficult
circumstances, and

21 although I will admit to personality
imperfections and not

22 being a very pleasant person necessarily all the
time, I

23 took exceptional good care of her 12 hours every
day. I

24 woke up at night whenever Teddie woke up. I

25 diapers. I made baby food. I took her to the
doctors. And


1 I didn't exactly get a "thank you" because
shortly after my

2 wife's pregnancy, with Susan, the relationship
went sour.

3 She was diagnosed with the clinical
depression. She

4 had been under a lot of stress. I tried to help
her. There

5 was an injury during the pregnancy, and I made
her food. I

6 took her to the doctors. I washed her. I took
poo-poo out

7 of her by hand when she couldn't. I care very
much about

8 Susan, Your Honor, and I would never do anything
to harm

9 her.

10 I have been committed to her since
marriage and

11 devoted my life to her until Theodora was born,
and then I

12 had to pay some attention to our daughter as

13 Regarding the San Francisco incident, I had
promised my wife

14 and have kept my promise that I would never take
my daughter

15 away from her and that, if there was a divorce,
I would give

16 her full custody of her.

17 The bay trip to San Francisco, as

18 mentioned, was because I felt that having to
work under

19 chronicle supervision day in and day out, I did
not feel

20 that I was in charge of my child, but simply
carrying out

21 the wishes of a mother who was not there, and I

22 this to Susan.

23 Now, Susan and Teddie have never slept
under a

24 separate roof since Teddie was born;
nevertheless, she has

25 taken Teddie away from here even for short
periods of time,


1 hours to days or a couple of weeks, during this

2 incident against my will, and my problem is
that, whenever I

3 see Teddie after that -- not every time, but
like 80 percent

4 of the time -- Teddie is sick, anything from the
sniffles to

5 brain injury, four days without bowel movement,
loss of

6 weight, ear infections, and so on.

7 And I don't mean to say that these are

8 coincidental, but they have been of concern to
me. In the

9 restraining order it says that I have to move
out, and a

10 month ago, at my wife's request, I did move out,
and I

11 rented a room. And after the separation, I went
back per

12 agreement to Sunday through Friday to take care
of Teddie as

13 I always have.

14 The plan was that I would try to recruit

15 appropriate nanny, one that I would supervise
while working

16 from home. And once she was being acceptable,
she would

17 move in and take my place there so I don't have
to be there

18 to hold the baby when she wakes up in the middle
of the

19 night or be there first thing in the morning.

20 Now, I would leave the house on Friday
night and go

21 stay where I'm paying rent by the month, and I
would return

22 on Sunday and almost invariably I would find
Teddie ill, and

23 again I don't -- Susan is a loving mother. She

24 Teddie, and so do I. What I'm saying is this
was just a

25 matter of fact, and I was so concerned.


1 When I returned Sunday and Susan was
gone with

2 Teddie and I found nobody in the house, my first
concern was

3 to call. She left Christina a number.
Christina is closed

4 on weekends. I called anybody that I thought
might know

5 Susan's whereabouts, and it turned out she, in a

6 melodramatic fashion, went to a battered
people's shelter.

7 And I also want to point out, Your
Honor, about

8 these eyes have been crying day and night for a
year now.

9 My wife has not spoken to me, refused to touch
me since

10 before Teddie was born, and I put my tail under
my legs and

11 bit my tongue and shut up and put up because
it's very

12 important to me that the parent, myself, take
care of my

13 daughter rather than some stranger, and this may
seem like

14 an obsession. To me, where I come from, it's

15 necessary and mandatory.

16 When I -- consequent to this, when I

17 people that knew both of us, it was impossible
to locate

18 her. When I finally was able to get hold of her

19 Wednesday, I was telling everybody that I
contacted, "Please

20 tell Susan bring Teddie and herself to this
house. I'm

21 already paying rent outside. There is no reason
for me to

22 stay here in luxury with an environmental luxury

23 for Teddie and her crib and toys and

24 They are staying somewhere strange, and
I was

25 worried to death that yet again, in my absence,
that Teddie


1 would be sick. To make a long story short, the
next time I

2 was able to see my daughter is when I went to
Bellinger Day

3 Care Center, which is run by Lori, the beautiful
lady with

4 the baby over there, and I found out that during
those four

5 or five days -- actually I hadn't seen her for a

6 because I left Friday for a week -- that she's
been taking

7 care of her since I wasn't able to.

8 Teddie developed high fever for several
days at a

9 time. She hadn't had a bowel movement for four
days, and

10 again I'm not saying that there is a cause or
somebody to

11 blame. I wasn't there. All I'm saying is this
is what I

12 found. I was very upset. I know Lori will
testify that I

13 was not a pleasant person to find my daughter on
her back

14 crying, and I pick her up and she stops crying,
and I -- I

15 can't -- she looks at me like where have you

16 Anyhow, I spoke to Christina on Monday.

17 lawyer, Your Honor, is more interested in
plotting some sort

18 of a scenario that will exclude me rather than
trying to

19 accommodate some sort of a compromise. I called
her Monday;

20 I called Tuesday; I called Wednesday. Each time
I request

21 that I meet with her. She demanded to hire an
attorney. I

22 told her, "I do not have money to waste for an
attorney." I

23 would be representing myself.

24 So Wednesday she agreed, but she said,
"You must

25 bring me -- first give me some paperwork," and
the paperwork


1 she requested was going to be financial
statements which I

2 printed out of my computer on the spot, and I
gave them to

3 Susan. I put them with Susan's mail. Is this
water here?

4 THE COURT: They both work. You just
have to open

5 them.

6 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I'm sorry. So I
produced Christine

7 a 50-page financial statement on the spot, and

8 the next time I spoke to her a few days later, I

9 "Christina, look where I live. I'm on my own.
I have no

10 kind of telephone of my own, and my landlady is
in Michigan

11 taking care of her dying father. She won't be
back until

12 three weeks. She can stop the mail and" --

13 THE COURT: Let me interrupt a little
bit. I've got

14 a whole bunch of hearings today.

15 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I apologize. I know
this was going

16 to take time.

17 THE COURT: I don't want to know how the
watch is

18 made. I just want to know what time it is.
Don't go into

19 quite as much detail. Just give me the basic

20 MR. COUTSOUKIS: She told me she sent
Susan the

21 statements in the mail. It turns out Susan sent
me the

22 statements in the mail to the day care center,
and I've

23 personally delivered them to her Friday --

24 THE COURT: Let me ask you something.

25 MR. COUTSOUKIS: -- in a meeting.


1 THE COURT: Let me ask you something.

2 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Yes, sir.

3 THE COURT: What kind of visitation are
you asking

4 for?

5 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Your Honor, I do not
see the point

6 of paying good money to have my daughter taken
care of by

7 someone definitely competent, but whose
attention is divided

8 and an unrelated person when I have taken
exceptional care

9 of my daughter day after day since she was born,
and there's

10 no reason why my wife, Susan, can't drop her off
at my

11 house, or I will pick her up if she doesn't want
to be where

12 I reside or the name Coutsoukis is. I would be
fine to pick

13 Teddie up in the morning at Lori's and deliver
her there

14 before Susan gets back from work.

15 Teddie needs my attention. She has
special needs.

16 She has missed physical therapy in my absence,
and I've seen

17 what is going on. I have to spend the time with

18 personally. It's not something that can be done
in a day

19 care center.

20 THE COURT: What kind of visitation do
you want to

21 give him?

22 MS. SANZ: Well, Your Honor, because of
what we

23 think of the instability of Mr. Coutsoukis, we
agreed to

24 visitation as indicated by my client in her
Petition, 1:00

25 to 5:00, but that he accommodate the child when
she's having


1 naps, which I think he does not want to do. And
we can have

2 the child care provider testify to his
difficulties in

3 accommodating the child when she wants to have
naps or just

4 dealing with the child in child care.

5 THE COURT: I'm not sure I'm clear on

6 Visitation only at the baby-sitter's -- is that
what you're

7 saying?

8 MS. SANZ: Preferably because of the
problems that

9 have been ongoing and his instability in taking
the child

10 out to San Francisco and that kind of situation;
that when

11 those visitations occur, that he cooperate with
the child

12 care provider and with the child's schedule;
that when the

13 child is taking naps, he not actually rant and
rave and, you

14 know, cause a scene, but to accommodate the
child's schedule

15 and not insist on visitation while the child

16 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I know my baby's naps.

17 THE COURT: Excuse me. No, no.

18 As I understand it, your client is
objecting to him

19 taking the child for a few hours away from the

20 Is that essentially it?

21 MS. SANZ: At this point.

22 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: I'm just asking -- if
I could

23 answer at this time, Your Honor. Excuse me. At
this time,

24 yes, because I don't know about his driving. He

25 sleep.


1 THE COURT: I understand you haven't
lived together

2 for a year.


4 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I moved out a month ago
because she

5 asked me to move.

6 THE COURT: How do you know he's not

7 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: He's leaving me
messages at

8 3:00 o'clock in the morning. I know he's not

9 THE COURT: That's in violation of the

10 order, and that can get you in jail.

11 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: He also comes --

12 THE COURT: He's what?

13 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: He's also come to the

14 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I have at her

15 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: No, not at my

16 MR. COUTSOUKIS: She left the front door

17 for me to.

18 THE COURT: She can notify us that
you're in

19 violation, and you'll get arrested and put in
jail. It's

20 just that simple. Don't go there. Don't even
call her, or

21 they'll pick you up and put you in jail. In the

22 you'll spend at least one night in jail. If
it's on a

23 weekend, you get to spend a whole weekend in
jail. Is that

24 clear?

25 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Yeah, absolutely.


1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Coutsoukis,
are you

2 going to try to find a job, or what's your

3 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Your Honor, I gave up a
career and

4 a business to do this, which I felt was an

5 important job. The plan with Susan regarding
money coming

6 into the house was --

7 THE COURT: Just answer my question. Do
you plan on

8 looking for a job?

9 MR. COUTSOUKIS: No. My plan is to
develop my own

10 business, and I have been working on it.
There's a project

11 I've been producing on the computer which is far

12 important than a business, and Susan knows that.

13 THE COURT: That's fine. And you're
going to do it

14 locally?

15 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Locally.

16 THE COURT: Is it some kind of software?

17 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Software, government

18 software.

19 THE COURT: Are you a citizen of Greece?

20 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I'm a citizen of the
United States.

21 THE COURT: All right. You have a
United States

22 passport?

23 MR. COUTSOUKIS: United States passport,
and I'm the

24 one that procured Teddie's United States

25 THE COURT: I was just wondering what
your status


1 was. I'm going to leave the restraining order
in effect. I

2 need to work out some kind of reasonable
visitation. I

3 don't know why we should burden this lady with
having him

4 there all day. We can let him have the child a
couple hours

5 every day.

6 Let me ask you something. You're
shaking your head

7 back there, or are you just rocking the baby?
What time

8 would be convenient for the baby to be picked up
by him for

9 a couple hours and returned? What would be best
for you?

10 THE BABY-SITTER: I'm really flexible.
I'm just

11 here for the best interest of the baby.

12 THE COURT: Okay. What time do you get
off work?

13 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: 5:00 o'clock, Your

14 THE COURT: If he picks the child up at

15 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon and returns at
4:30, would

16 that be a problem?

17 THE BABY-SITTER: That would be fine,
but I really

18 think the father should be checked out about his

19 swings. He's -- I wouldn't agree with him
taking the child

20 from me.

21 THE COURT: I guess that's my decision.

22 THE BABY-SITTER: But I've been spending
four hours

23 a day with him for the last two weeks pretty

24 THE COURT: But if I put you under oath,
would you

25 testify that this child is in any danger?


1 THE BABY-SITTER: I don't know him well
enough, but

2 I don't feel comfortable. I can't really say no
or yes.

3 THE COURT: That's my point. I don't
know that

4 there's any real danger.

5 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Your Honor --

6 THE COURT: Just be quiet. I don't know

7 there's any real danger of the child.

8 THE BABY-SITTER: There are obsessive
behaviors that

9 should be looked into.

10 THE COURT: I hear hundreds of divorces,
and there's

11 an obsessive behavior all the time. That's one
of the

12 common things that we find is people become
obsessive when

13 they are getting divorced for some reason. Once

14 broken their relationship, they become less
obsessive and

15 come down. In the meantime, I think he's
entitled to see

16 his child during the week.

17 Do the order, Christine.

18 MS. SANZ: Can I make a suggestion, Your

19 THE COURT: Yes.

20 MS. SANZ: I think she naps --

21 MRS. COUTSOUKIS: She's been napping
from 1:00 to

22 3:00. Can it be after she wakes up?

23 THE COURT: From 3:00 until 5:00?

24 MS. SANZ: Yes.

25 THE COURT: I was trying to make
arrangements so he


1 would get the child back before you got there,
but that's

2 fine.

3 Return the child no later than 5:00

4 MS. SANZ: Monday through Friday?

5 THE COURT: Monday through Friday.

6 Yes, Mr. Coutsoukis?

7 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Your Honor, Lori has
entrusted me

8 with the son over there to examine his ears with

9 otoscope.

10 THE COURT: Enough. Enough. Enough.
Enough. You

11 talk too much.

12 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I'm sorry.

13 THE COURT: You need to learn.

14 MR. COUTSOUKIS: I can take care of my
child. Two

15 hours is not enough, Your Honor.

16 THE COURT: You talk too much. You
talked yourself

17 right out of more visitation. I'll tell you
that right

18 now. That's all. The order will come, and you
can pick the

19 child up starting tomorrow at 3:00 o'clock until

20 return it at 5:00, no later than 5:00. If you
start taking

21 the child back after 5:00, I'll cut it off.

22 MR. COUTSOUKIS: Who is going to take
her to

23 physical therapy where I took her twice a week?

24 THE COURT: Her mother is going to take
care of it.

25 (The above-entitled matter was


) ss.




6 I, Eileen M. Leddy, an Official
Court Reporter

7 for the Circuit Court of the State of Oregon for

8 County, hereby certify that the foregoing pages

9 constitute a full, true, and correct
transcript of my

10 verbatim stenographic notes taken at the time
and place

11 specified in the caption hereof.


13 Dated at Medford, Oregon, this
day of

14 , 1994


17 Eileen M. Leddy

18 Certified
Shorthand Reporter








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By Photius Coutsoukis, Respondent.

"I Was There"

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